Wednesday, December 03, 2008

Babka Defends Me:

I want to thank my friend Jim Babka, former Press Secretary to the late great Harry Browne and currently of Downsize DC for defending me against Kristo Miettinen's criticisms and what I do in debunking David Barton's Christian Nation idea. Miettinen is very smart and we both agree on a number of important things (that many key Founders were not orthodox Trinitarian Christians and America was founded to be "minimally" or as I would put it "nominally" Christian, not on orthodox Trinitarian Christian principles). I just don't think he "gets" David Barton. Babka clearly does. We haven't just read Barton's books; we've also seen endless of his recorded live appearances and presentations. As Babka writes:

Jon Rowe is correct to attempt to define orthodoxy, because as David Barton uses it, he (Barton) is engaging in sleight of mouth. And I suspect he knows he’s doing it.

One of Barton’s core arguments is that 52 of the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence were orthodox in their Christian faith. When Barton is speaking to a television audience, he might even go a bit further and say, “evangelical,” instead of “orthodox.” Barton may, as Miettinen has spelled out, have a method to justify his position, but Barton’s audience is clearly getting a very different message.

And why does he make this argument of high level of orthodoxy, and even occasionally substitute the word, “evangelical?”

Well, the answer is simple. It’s what his audience wants to hear. And here’s the part Mr. Miettinen misses when he says that Rowe is, and Barton is NOT clinging to the unhistorical definition of Christianity: Barton is not a historian.

Rather, Barton is a politician. He’s been a high-ranking member of the Texas GOP and a paid consultant to the Republican National Committee, including a stint as a GOTV spokesman for the 2004 Bush campaign. He continues to lead groups of pastors into the fold with special DC tours. Barton is an advocate, not a scholar.

I suspect Mr. Rowe’s clarification of the Founder’s orthodoxy, or lack thereof — AS MODERN LAY-FOLK UNDERSTAND IT — is quite a threat to Mr. Barton’s story, or at least with his audience. Maybe Rowe’s use of the term orthodox Christian doesn’t follow some hifalutin rule of history departments, but it sure breaks down the opposition. What if Barton’s audiences knew that several of the signers were unitarians? You see, creeds aside, there are few more important notions to Christian Right Evangelicals than the deity of Christ. Jesus was God. Unitarians, Socinians (Jefferson’s likely position), and Arians (e.g., Jehovah’s Witnesses) are all heretics from an Evangelical perspective — even if they call themselves Christian.

It is doubtful that modern Christian Right Evangelicals would support Jefferson or Adams for elected office today, were their true opinions on the public record. Even David Barton knows that, which is why he uses tortured logic to re-present them in a more “helpful” image. Jon Rowe knows of their heresy as well, and he’s exposing it, effectively driving a wedge into the Barton myth. Good for Jon.


I am an Evangelical. I think we need about 100 Jon Rowe’s, though it would be even better if they too were Evangelicals — people from in the camp to right it. Fortunately, much of what Jon is doing is popularizing the work of Gregg Frazer, who is an Evangelical. We need more Rowe’s because Barton, in a phrase Evangelicals will have special appreciation for, “tickles the ears of his audience” — that is, he tells them what they want to hear; not what’s true. If he did tell the truth, it would be too nuanced to be of remunerative value to him, or political value to his partisan patrons.

If this was a Christian (founded) Nation, then for Mr. Barton, it means vote Republican. For his listeners, most of whom will agree to give their vote to the GOP after hearing his presentation, it means something more…

This was our country. It was stolen. We need to take it back.

This is a powerful motivator to the culture wars.

There's more. Read the whole thing.


Valerie said...

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed reading your post, and the defense.

Anonymous said...

Cats out of the bag
The Opposite to What Roy Masters says is whats he,s up to.

Roy Masters leaves his body and kills people.

The problems Roys Listeners are experiencing are being caused by Roy Masters AND THE Evil demon that controls Roy Masters.The solution ,cult leader Roy Masters is promoting, is to practise the meditation exercise .Once you do that a piece of the demons counsciousess is put in your,s. It then can look through your eyes and see who is good and who to hurt. Or who would stand in the way of evil and make a difference. It then tells you who to hurt or what to make them do.This is the key,the essence of that person,s counsciousness then decides to go along with it or not.They have to have a choice or else it would just be the demon doing all these things.That would defeat the purpose of having meditators,a buffer between that person and the demon,so that that person is to blame once if there ever found out.The essence of this person,s counsciousness is either willing or not willing to go along with it.Thats why you never talk to Cult Leader Roy Masters ,your inviting evil into your life and community.It then causes you problems, the only way out it wants you to take is the meditation exercise.

Cult Leader Roy Masters leaves his body and kills people this is th secret he doesn,t want anyone to know.He can also leave his and take control of peoples consciousness making them do anything ,especially commit criminal acts.He used to just kill people ,with no apparent cause of death ,the next day their found dead.But that started becoming suspicious so he now kills them with a heart attack or even takes control of you when your driving making you have a deadly car accident.He can even set up some serious mishap to kill you.

Cult Leader Roy Masters was the first to have the essence of his consciousness replaced with evil .This happened to him before he was even six years old . By the time he was fourteen he was converted enough to evil to go and see this demon that did this to him.This is when he started leaving his body and killing people.

Cult Leader Roy Masters gets all his power from this demon , without this demon Roy Masters would be powerless.

Roy Masters can leave his body and see who is connected to who , or who knows who , so if he wants to destroy someone , he,ll manipulate things to meet
that person ,then put something evil in that persons counsciousness to make then do anything he desires to destroy them.

There,s only a few other meditators that know about this demon.
The mediatators are a buffer to protect this demon should anyone find out the source of their evil.The mediators have no idea about this demon that has replaced their consciousness.They don,t know why their in Grants Pass.
It operates through them it.It likes to remain hidden in the background thats how it operates.

The meditation he teaches is a trick to get people to give up their essence of their consciousness.They,ve lost everthing then .The evil then looks through their consciousness .Thats why their so sad after this evil is born again in them.Their now just an extension of the demon .They also leave their bodies and make everyone else look bad like their doing something wrong in their life and the meditators are the pillar of society.

The fear you feel listening to Roy Masters or trying his meditation is your consciousness warning you that its in danger.

This demon has the entire life of the mediator mapped out for them what they,ll do and when they,ll die

Anyone whose a threat to the foundation of human understanding is a target.The demon through Roy Masters will make them do something bad to destroy their
lives ,so nobody will listen to them. This often happening to them without them even knowing why,that there a threat to the demon.

Roy Masters is always bragging ,on his show, how he likes to give people two years for them to straighten up.
What he,s really saying is he waits to years before leaving his body and killing them. He knows he,s being watched.

Roy Masters is always getting people to talk to him don,t.Once you talk to him your really talking to the demon that controls him.Then it can start messing with your consciousness.Making you have compulsive problems,medical problems (at the most inappropriate time ),make bad business decisions and mistake to ruin your life.This is how it works ,its your fault for talking to them.In the evil,s eyes.

Roy Masters has followers in the FBI they also leave their bodies and know of any impending investigation into The Foundation Of Human Understanding and Cult Leaqder Roy Masters.They take control of the investigation and make sure it leads nowhere.They can put thoughts in the FBI agents heads and control them.They can make FBI agents make obvious mistakes to get them fired .

Roy Masters likes to go after FBI agents children making them think and become homosexuals and develop other problems.

Right at key moments Roy Masters can make you make a mistake.He does this by leaving his body.He can make you do or say something to destroy your life .He can even put the thought in your mind so you think it originated in you.This is so you don,t go looking for the cause.

Roy Masters leaves his body and travels at a conscious level attacking people,s consciousness and killing them.

No one that goes to Roy Masters seminars are possessed by demons.This is just a big act Roy and the demon that controls him put on.They take control of a persons nervous system and consciousness making them growl like their possessed and crawl around on the floor like their affraid of his cross.

If Roy Masters cannot get you he,ll go after your children or relatives in another city or state.He can leave his body and see who your related to.He ca kill them or set up an accident or have them be a victim of a crime.

Roy Masters and the demon trhat controls him can cause all manner of medical problems in people ,breast cancer,colon cancer,heart attacks,strokes,kidney failure.

Roy masters can see who your connected to so he,ll go out of his way to be nice to you so either you,ll say nice things to someone you know or to destroy someone your connected to.He leaves his body and can see everything.

It,s Roy Masters and the demon that controls him doing these things to the people of Grants Pass and Eugene Oregon and southern Oregon.The demon operates through the meditators,so when you go looking to find who did this you only find a person.,If their caught,their a buffer to protect the evil.This is how
evil operates to protect itself so it won,t be found out.

At key moments Cult Leader Roy Masters can inject sentences or phrases into your conversations to make you look bad.

Roy Masters wants to ruin all the original towns people of Grants Pass so that they cannot fight back against him.
He wants to replace them with creepy cult members.He screws with their consciousness,making a mess of their lives so that every day is a struggle.So that they can bearly go on.

Roy Masters claims it a noble cause to go and fight in Iraq.But he,s leaving his body and making sure the best of American soldiers are killed over there.

The opposite to what Roy Masters says on his radio program is what he,s up to he wants to destroy america.The evil that controls him and came over from Britian with him only came to destroy america.

This evil is always with him .It travels through the darkness.
That,s how it gets around. And hurts people.Causing them heart attacks ,pain and suffering.Any problem you could imagine making peoples life a personal hell

Roy Masters has destoyed many lives even Hollywood stars.He Will leave his body and take control of their consciousness making them spew out racist comments about Jews or Blacks.Or even get caught up in drugs and alcohol leading to their arrest and subsequent end of their carreers.Thats why you should never talk
to Roy Masters.

Roy Masters gives excuses on his radio program for events you know then that he was behind that which has happened.For example he claimed once that police officers commit suicide with their guns because the evil that they fight got in them and cause them to do it.Mean while he,s taken control of the police officer and made him commit suicide with his gun and took control of them putting something in them to make thm commit criminal acts.Making appear like criminals the real person inside not being able to explain why this happened to him or fight it.

Cult leader Roy Masters hides behind a mask of christianity , he,s not really a christian.In the end his meditation exercise has nothing to do with
christianity , it just puts a piece of th demons counsciousness inside yours.

Roy Masters is always calling his followers stupid , its like a bad person calling you stupid because you won,t do something they want you to do.This
something they want you to do will probably harm you. Of course if you don,t what Roy Masters wants your no longer stupid.This being his meditation exercise.
Once you practise this and your sucessful in going to this other place in your head ,and have a piece of the demons counsciousness put in yours,thats
the end of you, now it really too late.Yes before its too late , that being he,s found out to be a complete liar.Once people have this piece of the demons
counsciousnees in their counsciousness they cannot complain or do the demon ,that they are not aware of, any harm.

Roy Masters likes leave his body and attack the inner person ,your soul,the next day you wake up feeling sore all over,your first though is to blame
someone else for this,routine everyday activities become a chore,you don,t want to work or go to school,you nearly give up.Thats what he wants.
This often leads to suicide.

Roy Masters gets all of his power from this demon,without this demon Roy Masters is a powerless nothing.

Roy Masters and his followers can take control of you and make you or your loved ones have a deadly car accident.

You only need to know its Roy Masters and his followers causing this problem ,then it goes back on them.

At a level your counsciousness is on ,the rules are different,if FHU cult members do something to you and you find out its them doing it,what they did
goes back on them. Thats the rule Cult Leader Roy Masters keeps from his followers,or else they wouldn,t harm anyone.
Thats why the demon operates through Roy Masters and his followers,once their found out, their cut off from the demon ,usually eventually killed or
commit suicide.

Once you talk to Roy Masters ,your caught in his trap,at the counscious level thats another rule,he,ll even manipulate things to talk to you.

Thats the perfect front and christian mask, its almost impossible to go against,this front of helping americans ,as he says on his Advice line,its the
oposite of what he,s up to.Taking on america,s problems , as a trick to get people to practise his meditation.So he can hide behind this mask and not
be suspect.

Whenever Cult Leader Roy Masters does something to me , the same thing happens right back to him. Thats why he gets his followers to do things to me;he then has to kill then to prevent it from coming back on him.He only transfers this power temporarily to the follower.All the other hard core meditators
,in and around Grants Pass know this,when they leave their bodies they avoid me like the plague;they know whats going to happen to that meditator.
He neglects to tell the followers that the same thing would happen to them.
Now its come to my attention,that one of his followeers is being groomed to exclusively attack me.I guarantee this follower will not know that the same
thing will happen right back to them.Roy Masters has something he won,t share with his followers.

What Roy Masters is not telling his followers is, the rules that govern your life at a counscious level are different then every day rules as a person.
If The meditator is found out their cut off from the demon,or else it goes right back on the demon.These meditators that fall as Roy Masters Calls them
usually end up dead.Thats Why a lot of times on Roy Masters program he tells his listeners not to tell anyone about him.He then uses them to hurt people where there is a high chance of them being found out by other counsciosnesses.Thgis person is usually killed right away.

Roy Masters and his followers leave their bodies and follow around people they are out to get or make look bad, they then make bad things happen whenever their around so it looks like that person is a bad omen or bad luck or only bad thinks happpen when their in the neighbourhood.

The demons or just plain evil that controls Roy Masters needs people to operate through.This evil is the same that controls the democratic party.Ones right and one is left ripping apart the real Americans in the middle.

The more evil meditators always bet down on the less evil meditator.

Always say to yourself the same thing happens to back to foundation of human understanding people ,no matter what the problem be it cancer ,drug problem any other social problems ,bad business mistakes ,they can make you make, or even back to Cult Leader Roy Masters himself.Whatever they have done to you goes right back on them.

Roys followers are now also teaching the meditation ,same demons that control Roy Masters,these new meditators have no knowledge of Roy Masters though,but still do things for him not knowing the person they learned this mediation from is one of Roy Masters followers.

Cult leader Roy Masters has a tricky way of controlling the police and using them to go after his enemies.He will have his folloewers take contol of a polce officer and make them go around asking question to destroy the reputation of that person.This way he gets them to do the dirty work for him.And its all right because its the police doing this.When anyone complains about him to the police ,and local departments start making inquirers about him things are manipulated so that only cops you are his followers answer the questions ,saying the praises of cult leader Roy Masters.

Roy Masters liks to transfer over to his followers ay punishment he is to receive at a conscious level.He uses this when he is caught doing something ,thats the rules if your caught you have to take it back.

People don,t fall that practise his meditation exercise , they just reject having evil put in their counsciousness.

Their doing the dirty work for Cult Leader Roy Masters.He and his followers leave their bodies and are leading them around to ask quesions about me ,then they inject (or as Roy Masters calls it influence) the person there talking to say always say something negative about me ,just what Roy Masters wants them to hear.All critics and enemies of Roy Masters are made to look bad and or crazy .While when you ask questions about Roy Masters ,his followers will make sure only nothing or good things are said about him.This is just so people don,t believe the truth about him when it comes out.They don,t even remember this is being going on since I was 12.It,s erased from their memories so they can keep doing this again.

Dec3,2008 Additions

Followers of Cult Leader Roy Masters are made to fail by the demon that controls Roy Masters,thios is a trick to get them to practise the meditation.
Roy Masters :see this is what happens when you don,t practise the meditation.
Roy Masters is just hypnotizing everyonr that listens to him.
Roy Masters is putting in them the problems he,s talking about,resentment. He builds his entire psychology around this.He,s disrupting their inner life.Introduceing conflict in them , the resolve of this conflict being his mediatation,then your counsciousness has evil put in it.Your already better off without listening to Roy Masters.
Roy Masters is looking for people so desperate that they will try anything,if their not to desperate he,ll put that in them to seek out the meditation.
Roy Masters just bables on about common problems people have as if he knows something

The more evil meditators leaving their bodies and beating down on the less evil mediators.
Roy Masters will put evil eg.a problem,compulsive behaviour,drug aalcohol problems,sexual problems ect in people ,he then leaves it to his followers to come
and activate this evil,this way at a higher conscious level he,s not to blame when their found out.Thats the rules at you consciousness level.
IMPORTANT: to beat roy masters at these problems (one way is just to say the same thing happens back to foundation people).Say this in your head ever time the problem occurs ,they,ll keep leaving their bodies for a while after that to make it seem like it,s not working.
When callers to thew advice line say they have fallen,whats really happened they have rejected the evil that entered their counsciosness.Cult leader Roy Masters just gives it this religious label that they fell.
Once people have that evil put in their counsciousness they cannot tell anyone about it ,it controls them.
Roy masters is always saying you have to practise his meditation exercise to understand what he,s talking about ,this is justa trick to get you to prcatise
the medatation and have evil put in your counsciousness.Then that person goes around doing the same thing.Causing the next person conflict and problems and the only way out is again the medatation.
Cult talk ( Roy Masters says your scum until ou practise the medatation ,to be like him not scum you must practise the meditation.)
Other facets of a cult (if you don,t join our group of meditators you,ll goto hell.)

Roy Masters just wants to replace the evil in people that is causing them problems with his own evil.This is his certain type of person.These former alcoholics for examople and ect. now have evil in them that leaves their bodies and kills people or takes control of them making others do bad things
,the person with that evil in them will never do anything bad.Thats how evil works.the evil that controls Roy Masters is just trying to get its own army to help destroy America.Right vs. Left. Even a small group of medatators can control a lot of people and do a lot of damage.

No one that goes to Cult Leader Roy Masters seminars are possesed by demons.Its just the evil that is looking through roy masters counsciousness and it
can see whose counsciousness is good .It makes them roll around on the ground and growl and act like their possesed the more good they are the more silly the possesion.For example running around acting like their possesed by a chicken.Thats their punishment for being good and going to one of his seminars.
It,s the evil operating through roy masters making them do this .Its their punishment for being good and going there.

More cult talk :Roy Masters tells his followers that their special because they go to his seminars and listen to his show.This draws his followers in.Just because they listen to his show,to be more special they must practise thr mediatation.

More cult talk Roy Masters tells his followers all their problems are from their parents,this is just to drive a wedge between that person and their parents.
So that there his.

Roy Masters folowers don,t react because their dead inside.

Roy Masters was just the first to have evil put in his counsciousness,an organization came and did this to him.His destiny is to get more people to do this
,have evil put in their counsciousness.These followers are a buffer between them and the evil.So they get blamed and the evil gets off scot free.
This evil has always been in America,but for some reason it has to use someone from a foreign country.It needs a buffer to do thewse things to americans or else it would be to blame.It cannot keep using itself up.Its too risky to do these things ,it gets roy masters followers to leave their bodies and take
control of people and make them take control of people and make them do bad things.

Why are people thaT HAVE PROBLEMS RIPE FOR THE PICKING OF Roy Masters.Its because there already susceptible to evil.The evil that is causing those problems
is replaced with evil that controls Roy Masters.
To be sucessful with Roy Masters meditation you must do what the evil wants ( as roy puts it no ticky no washy) or else you,ll problems will come back or and you,ll fail financially,personally.
There,s no journey with the meditation exercise ,its just killing the original person.The meditation keeps you seeing things ,its a distraction as it replaces your counsciousness with evil.

If someone complains about cult leader Roy masters to the Grants Pass Police they will most likely get directed to a foundation of human understanding cult memeber.The FHU cult members and cult lead Roy Masters have a way of leaving their bodies and manipulating things to get their members in a position of power.
This is a tricky way of protecting cult leader roy masters. These cult members will then manipulate things so they look like their doing a great job ,not a blemish on their record,even some F.B.I. agents are FHU cult members and things have being manipulate so that their put in Oregon so that any investigation
into Roy Masters,the investigation comes across their desk.The FHU cult members can see whose doing the hiring (by Leaving their bodies,you cannot see your counsciousness can you,Thats what leaves the meditators body and Roy Masters body,it then influences whoever.)They used to do this in LA but somehow lost it.
That fprmer police chief might very well have been a FHU cult member.
Mediatators are people that practise the cult meditation and have something in their counsciousness replaced with evil.

I keep forgetting to say why I am writing this about cult leader Roy Masters,it should be obvious.It,s to save peoples lives and warn them about him.
If thy practise the cult meditation they,ll have a piece of their counsciousness replaced with evil ,then thats the end of the original counsciousness
they were born with and they have lost their life.Or If you just talk to cult leader Roy Masters he may someday leave his body and kill you.Or your relatives
getting in a accident and being killed .Or just mysteriously dying or heart attack ect.Your family could start developing problems.I can see with my counsciousness,I can see the meditators counsciousness and how its been replaced with evil.I can see through all the smoke and mirrors and see what he,s really up to.These are the types of people Roy Masters,the evil that controls him and operates through his followers that they kill.Roy Masters likes to take pot shots at me using his followers.He knows anything he does to me ,the same thing mysteriously happens back to him.He,s got lots of followers to use up and he usually has to cut them off afterwards or else it still will go back on him.
When everthing is in place RoY Masters and his followers have set up everthing so that its in place,they,ve made sure people are watching me then they
take control of me and make me do something wrong ,example look at something inappropriate on the internet.This is to make me look bad and cult leader
Roy Masters good.
I am not writing this for the police to do anything to Roy Masters ,just so they know in their counsciousness whose doing this to them.