Tuesday, May 17, 2005

Cramer knows better:

Clayton Cramer knows better than to write this:

[H]omosexual men are at least 4-6x more likely to molest children than heterosexual men. Because nearly all sexual abuse of children is done by men, men of all orientations are almost twice as likely as women to sexually abuse children. Not surprisingly, our society (although not our laws) operate on prejudicial assumptions about men, and even more so, about homosexual men.

Is this unfair to homosexual men, most of whom are not going to molest children? Sure. Is this unfair to straight men, most of whom are not going to molest children? Sure. But men are substantially more likely to be molesters, and homosexual men are even more substantially likely to be molesters. The risks to children are very high--and some hurt feelings or even limited vocational and avocational opportunities (you can't be a Scoutmaster) are a small price to pay.

While it's true that men are more violent than women, more likely to commit crimes, and yes more likely to molest children or rape other adults than women, it has not been established that homosexual men are more likely to molest children than heterosexual men.

Cramer basis his statistic on the fact that 20% of molestations are same-sex (men on boy) in nature (I've heard up to 1/3). Gay men are about 4-5% of the male population (lesbian women are about 2% of the female population; gays altogether are about 3-4% of the overall population). 4-5% of the male population committing 20% of the molestations, hence his disproportionate number. The problem is that 4-5% of the population who identify as homosexual do so because they have a full and primary or exclusive attraction to adult members of the same sex. Therefore if the 20% of the same-sex molestations were committed almost exclusively by the population who identify as homosexual, the 4-6x figure would be accurate. But the problem is, they are not. This isn't to say that no self-identified gay man has ever molested someone underaged. It is to say however, that some unknown but large -- perhaps the overwhelming majority -- of molesters have no attraction to adult members of the same sex and do not identify as gay. Therefore, when it comes to those statistics that demonstrate that gays are around 3-4% of the society, those same-sex molesters are not putting themselves in that box. Therefore using the "gays are 3-4% of the population" as a baseline is an error, and turns the 4-6x figure into a garbage statistic.

We can come forth with countless examples. Jake Goldenflame, because he is rehabilitated and goes on talk shows, is probably the most commonly known and notorious pedophile. He molested tons of children of both sexes including his own daughter. He was married, never identified as gay and never demonstrated any attraction to adult members of the same-sex. And, as I understand, this is typical for a pedophile. In short lumping him in with the gay community because he molested little boys is downright disingenuous.

As far as I understand, what distinguishes true pedophiles is that they are fixed on the age, not necessarily the gender of the actor, although they may have a gender preference. Hence we see a lot of pedophiles who, like Goldenflame, molest both sexes. And given that pedophiles are focused on age rather than gender and given that little boys are 49% of the child population, we shouldn't expect to see only 4-5% of the molestations to be same-sex in nature.

Now it could be argued that because he molested both boys and girls that he is *some* kind of bisexual, hence throw him into the "Gay or Bi" box. But then again, this all depends of who is *some* kind of bisexual and how big is that box.

As I pointed out, those who self-indentify as gay and join the gay community are probably no more than 3-4% of society. But, the size of the "gay or bi" box can be seen as much larger depending on how we define it (just as the size of the "black or mixed race" box changes depending on how we define it; who do we put in and at what point do we draw the line? Bigots of the past drew the line at one drop of black blood. In that case anyone with Hispanic, Arab, or Southern European blood would probably be put in the "black or mixed race" box, hence making it much larger).

The gay/bi community is made up of those who have a exclusive or primary homosexual orientation, and also those with a perfectly even and full bisexual orientation (in short, those who are from 3-6 on the Kinsey scale). And while perfect bisexuals are relatively rare, almost unheard of for males, a huge percentage of both the "gay" and the "straight" population have *some* degree of bisexuality.

While I am aware that a lot of straights have a professed and probably real revulsion to all things homosexual (making them "exclusively heterosexual" in all ways), what people like Cramer fail to appreciate is that some huge percentage -- probably not a majority but a very large percentage nonetheless -- of self-indentified heterosexuals do not have a revulsion to all things homosexual and have the ability to enjoy certain kinds of homosexual acts and have experimented with such acts at some point in their lives (if we are talking about a heterosexual man, it's almost certain to be with some smaller, younger, or more feminine male doing things to him that a women would otherwise do; use your imagination).

What percentage of the population are we talking about? I really can't say because people aren't up front about this. I call this the "masturbation affect." We all know that men of virile years who don't get regular sex, masturbate universally to satisfy their need for release. Yet ask many men about this in surveys and they will deny it.

If that many men are willing to lie about masturbation, how many straight guys -- guys who are fully attracted to women in a way they could never be to men and who have no desire to be understood as "gay or bisexual" -- would admit to same-sex experimentation? And this is especially true given that any admission to same-sex behavior gives rise to an inference of a gay or bi identity.

I think Aaron McKinney of Matthew Shepard infamy is a good illustration. Recently the news broke that McKinney had some same-sex experiences. He is man who 1) never joined the gay community, 2) has a girlfriend [presumably one of many in his life] and evidences a primary and full attraction to women, and 3) (somewhat less important) is a masculine brute who in no way "fits" the gay stereotype. Immediately people started "labeling" him as a "bisexual." But that's not how he understands himself. When asked about these experiences in a jail-room interview he flatly denied them.

People commit situational homosexuality for a variety of reasons. I think of all those women who go on the Howard Stern show and fool around with other women or how common it is among women in certain circles -- it's almost universal among the women in prostitution and pornography, and very common among erotic dancers. But these women aren't "real lesbians" and they aren't "real bisexuals" either because most of them don't have the capacity to flourish in a meaningful relationship with members of the same sex.

Situational homosexuality is a lot like situational left-handedness. I think people realize that when a batter in a ball-game "switch hits" that doesn't automatically turn him into someone who is either left-handed or perfectly ambidextrous. If we say that he has *some* degree of ambidextrousness...well who doesn't have *some* degree of abidexrousness?

What is the point of all of this? If we want to call pedophiles like Jake Goldenflame *some* kind of bisexual because he molested little boys and girls and if we are going to throw all of the Aaron McKinneys into the "gay or bi box" -- anyone who has for some short period in their life experimented with homosexual behavior even if they are otherwise well adjusted heterosexuals who always had a full attraction to members of the opposite, not the same, sex -- then the "gay or bi" box is a Hell of a lot larger than 3-4% of the population and is probably a lot larger than 20% of the population as well. Therefore, the stat that uses the 3-4% as a baseline and compares it to child molestations that are same-sex in nature is a garbage statistic. Cramer should know better.


Marty said...

Yeah that's the problem with self identifying your sexuality -- you can choose to be IN the box, or OUT of it, as it suits your needs.

Think outside the box my freind. You are not who you think you are -- you are what you do.

Jonathan said...

I know that, by self-identifying, you can choose to be IN the box or OUT of it. But the reason why people choose to be IN the box is because they have a very REAL orientation, that is as real as the left-handed orientation.

Bill Ware said...


Your posts on this subject are getting better over time. This one was especially good. From the American Psychological Association page Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality:

Sexual Orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectional attraction to another person. It is distinguished from other components of sexuality including biological sex, gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female) and the social gender role (adherence to cultural norms for feminine and masculine behavior)...

Bisexual persons can experience sexual, emotional and affectional attraction to both their own sex and the opposite sex. Persons with a homosexual orientation are sometimes referred to as gay (both men and women) or as lesbian (women only).

Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior because it refers to feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may not express their sexual orientation in their behaviors.

Another myth about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children.

Please see my post The APA on Sexual Orientation for comments I made on these and other of their Questions and Answers.

This sexual arousal occurs in the hypothalamus, a part of the limbic system which deals with emotions in general. This autonomic nervous system response to gender specific cues is not under conscious control and has many of the same hormonal and other physiological characteristics of the "fight or flight" reaction, except instead of a feeling of fear, the release of oxytocin produces a feeling of euphoria and a desire to be closer.

My post Gay Limbic Reaction to Pheromones refers to a study which shows that sexual arousal in the hypothalamus is similar between heterosexual women and gay men and both are different than that in heterosexual men. More practically, in my post An Objective Criteria for Sexual Orientation I describe a test that determines sexual orientation for clinical studies.

Yet polls and surveys are limited to estimating orientation through self reporting and questions regarding behavior. Sexual orientation as clinically defined and sexual behavior which is entirely under voluntary control are certainly related, but they are NOT the same thing. Your description of situational homosexual acts, young teenage boys playing with each other, prisoners using others for sexual release, and so on, indicate no sexual feelings for the partner other than the friction they provide for their own sexual gratification. Pedophilia, necrophilia, and other disorders also fall into this sex purely for gratification category.

Those whose orientation is gay are capable of forming deep bonds of love and affection with another gay person, just like heterosexual couples do, since these are based on the same sets of genes in both cases as I describe in Genetic Basis for Sexual Orientation.

When dishonest people like the one you discuss here, try to cloud the issue by conflating all kinds of deviant sexual behavior that happens to involve two persons of the same sex with sexual orientation, which has nothing to do with these behaviors, then this willful deceit must be brought to light and soundly condemned.

Thanks for your efforts in this area. Bill Ware

Cross posted at Ware Farms blog as Jon Rowe deals with Dishonest Data about Gays

Marty said...

Sorry, i'm just somewhat amused that you, Bill Ware, would use the phrase "deviant sexual behaviour" in this discussion.

As if your definition of Deviance is any less subjective than my own.

For example:

Those whose orientation is gay are capable of forming deep bonds of love and affection with another gay person, just like heterosexual couples do

The sincere members of NAMBLA back this up 100% -- they are just waiting for their particular "gene" to be "proven". And given time, the APA is sure to rise to their challenge -- the stars are lining up as we speak.

Jonathan said...


The only thing that's wrong with pedophilia is that it harms the child actor involved, period. The defining feature of "wrongness" of pedophilia is wholly absent from homosexuality.

I don't doubt that some pedophiles do "love" the child actor involved. If that's the case then, let them wait until the child reaches the age of majority or consent before being allowed to act upon those desires.

Marty said...

Jon, "harm" is pretty subjective now isn't it? If the young person doesn't feel harmed in any way, does that make it "right"?

Jonathan said...

Careful Marty, that pedophilia "harms" the child involved is the only reason why it is wrong.

I don't think it's that subjective of a concept. Rather I think harm it's a much broader concept.

MKL was not a "real" pedophile in that she demonstrated no fixation on children for sexual purposes. And I obviously can't find anything wrong with her marriage now given that Villi is a fully grown adult. But it's clear that he was harmed by their relationship. He became a father at the age of 14, before he was mature enough; I would call that harm in itself right there, wouldn't you?

I don't like the ideas of young teens having sex, but when it's two young teens together, there isn't a victimizer. But when an adult is involved, the adult should know better than to take advantage of the circumstance.

VD, pregnancies, abortions, out of wedlock births. These are all gravely serious issues. I think that children or young teens can be harmed by having sex with adults should be obvious.

Bill Ware said...

As we have seen in the Church scandals, pedophilia can leave scares that can last a life time. That's why professionals who have to deal with these problems want laws that are even stronger than those we have now. BW

Marty said...

I don't like the ideas of young teens having sex, but when it's two young teens together, there isn't a victimizer.

You're sure about that? First, there is plenty of sexual abuse happening between minors. Second, i have it on good authority that GLSEN clubs are basically just social clubs and dating pools, ripe for such abuse, and actively encouraged by "adult" (what, 3-7 years difference?) gay mentors.

But when an adult is involved, the adult should know better than to take advantage of the circumstance.

I cannot help but wonder how many young catholic men never came forward, never accused thier preists of abuse, because they didn't consider it abuse. I can only wonder. But am willing to bet more than a few of them are wearing the rainbow sash these days...

I cannot help but wonder how many of them would never had become gay in the first place, if left to their own devices.

Bill Ware said...


If you're talking about extracuricular clubs at school, they have to conform to certain guidelines:

They have to be organized and led by the students. Only students can attend. The only non student allowed is a teacher (if one is required) for "administrative purposes" only who may not participate.

Complete guidelines can be found at the US Ed Dept web site: http://www.ed.gov/

Bill Ware said...


Here is the APA Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality web page.

Sexual orientation is determined by biological processes that occur before birth and cannot be changed. So no activity in church could make someone gay.

I hope you will read the whole page.

Marty said...

Bill, you claim that sexual orientation cannot be changed. You claim that this is a scientific fact. You claim that you do not know anyone whose orientation has changed.

So what to make of those of us who do? What to make of those whose orientations have? Are they liars? Don't they disprove your conclusion about "change"?

They do exist, you know. I've seen it with my own two eyes.

Tim said...

This is why I've come to loathe kids -- they're always exploited to make some sort of homophobic attack. I know the Far Right is manipulating these innocents to make a political point, and I realize the kids themselves have no more control over that exploitation than the victim of a child molester might have. Alas, I'm only human: Although I'm aware that our children never consented to be used in this way, somehow I resent the little ones for allowing it to happen.

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